马尔克斯对谈黑泽明 García Márquez/Kurosawa 双语译文

In October 1990, Colombian novelist Gabriel García Márquez visited Tokyo during the shooting of Akira Kurosawa’s penultimate feature, Rhapsody in August. García Márquez, who spent some years in Bogota as a film critic before penning landmark novels such as One Hundred Years of Solitude and Love in the Time of Cholera, spoke with Kurosawa for over six hours on a number of subjects.

1990年10月，哥伦比亚小说家加夫列尔·加西亚·马尔克斯(Gabriel García Márquez)在黑泽明（Kurosawa）拍摄他一生中倒数第二部电影《八月狂想曲》时前往东京拜访。马尔克斯在执笔写出那些里程碑般的作品，比如《百年孤独》《霍乱时期的爱情》之前，曾在波哥大做过很久的电影评论者，此次来东京和黑泽明有了长达六小时的攀谈。

Gabriel García Márquez: I don’t want this conversation between friends to seem like a press interview, but I just have this great curiosity to know a great many other things about you and your work. To begin with, I am interested to know how you write your scripts. First, because I am myself a scriptwriter. And second, because you have made stupendous adaptations of great literary works, and I have many doubts about the adaptations that have been made or could be made of mine.

Akira Kurosawa: When I conceive an original idea that I wish to turn into a script, I lock myself up in a hotel with paper and pencil. At that point I have a general idea of the plot, and I know more or less how it is going to end. If I don’t know what scene to begin with, I follow the stream of the ideas that spring up naturally.

加夫列尔·加西亚·马尔克斯：我一点也不想我们朋友间的座谈变成新闻发布会式的访谈，但是我想对你和你的工作了解的更多一点，我太好奇了。我想知道你是怎样写剧本的。因为首先我本人也是一个编剧，其次你对文学作品的改编都很出色，我对我自己作品的改编多少还是有点顾虑的。

黑泽明：当我开始有一个编写剧本的初步想法时，我会把自己锁在一个酒店里，拿着纸和笔。这时候我已经对情节有了大概的脉络，我多少对故事结局也会有一些想法。如果我不知道某一幕如何开始，我就会放任思想自然流动。

García Márquez: Is the first thing that comes to your mind an idea or an image?

Kurosawa: I can’t explain it very well, but I think it all begins with several scattered images. By contrast, I know that scriptwriters here in Japan first create an overall view of the script, organizing it by scenes, and after systematizing the plot they begin to write. But I don’t think that is the right way to do it, since we are not God.

马尔克斯：你脑海里首先浮现出来的是一个念头还是一个画面呢？

黑泽明：我说不好，但是我想这些想法大都是出自于一些零散的画面。就日本的许多编剧而言，它们首先都会创造出一个剧本的大纲，用一些场景把这个大纲组织起来，然后再加入具体的情节，最后开始写作。但是我并不认为这就是一种好办法，毕竟我们谁都不是上帝。

García Márquez: Has your method also been that intuitive when you have adapted Shakespeare or Gorky or Dostoevsky?

Kurosawa: Directors who make films halfway may not realize that it is very difficult to convey literary images to the audience through cinematic images. For instance, in adapting a detective novel in which a body was found next to the railroad tracks, a young director insisted that a certain spot corresponded perfectly with the one in the book. “You are wrong,” I said. “The problem is that you have already read the novel and you know that a body was found next to the tracks. But for the people who have not read it there is nothing special about the place.” That young director was captivated by the magical power of literature without realizing that cinematic images must be expressed in a different way.

马尔克斯：当你改编莎士比亚、高尔基，或者是陀思妥耶夫斯基的作品时，还是会那么依靠直觉吗？

黑泽明：导演在拍摄期间可能意识不到把文学意象通过电影画面传达给观众很难。举个例子吧，在改编一部侦探小说时，有一个场景是在铁路轨道旁发现了尸体，一个年轻导演坚持严格遵循小说里的地点，必须毫无差池。但我告诉他，“你错了。你是读过小说的，你知道尸体是在轨道旁被发现的。但是对那些没有读过原著的人来说，这个地点没什么特殊意义。”那个年轻的导演对原著已经着迷了，并没有意识到电影改编应该用另一种表现方式。

García Márquez: Can you remember any image from real life that you consider impossible to express on film?

Kurosawa: Yes. That of a mining town named Ilidachi, where I worked as an assistant director when I was very young. The director had declared at first glance that the atmosphere was magnificent and strange, and that’s the reason we filmed it. But the images showed only a run-of-the-mill town, for they were missing something that was known to us: that the working conditions in (the town) are very dangerous, and that the women and children of the miners live in eternal fear for their safety. When one looks at the village one confuses the landscape with that feeling, and one perceives it as stranger than it actually is. But the camera does not see it with the same eyes.

马尔克斯：你能记起来任何来源于生活但是在电影上表现出来却几乎不可能的画面吗？

黑泽明：有的。很小的时候，我还在一个采矿镇做助导。当时的导演第一眼就被当地宏大又陌生的氛围所触动，因此想在这里拍摄。但是拍摄出的画面看到的只是一个普通的小镇，因为这些画面中丢失了一些东西，一些我们明白的东西：镇上的工作环境很危险，旷工的老婆和孩子们长期生活在安全无保障的担忧里。当一个人来看这个村庄他会因此困惑迷茫，而且这种感受对他而言如此陌生。但是摄像头并不是用同样的眼神去看这一切。

电影《红胡子》剧照

García Márquez: The truth is that I know very few novelists who have been satisfied with the adaptation of their books for the screen. What experience have you had with your adaptations?

Kurosawa: Allow me, first, a question: Did you see my film Red Beard?

马尔克斯：我知道不少小说家都对他们自己作品的改编不甚满意，你所做的改编有遇到什么特殊经历吗？

黑泽明：首先允许我问一个问题：你看过我导的《红胡子》吗？

García Márquez: I have seen it six times in 20 years and I talked about it to my children almost every day until they were able to see it. So not only is it the one among your films best liked by my family and me, but also one of my favorites in the whole history of cinema.

Kurosawa: Red Beard constitutes a point of reference in my evolution. All of my films which precede it are different from the succeeding ones. It was the end of one stage and the beginning of another.

马尔克斯：我在20年里看了6次，而且我几乎每天都和我的孩子们讲述它直到他们可以自己去看了。《红胡子》不仅是您的电影里我和我的家人最喜欢的一部，甚至可以说是整个电影史上我的最爱。

黑泽明：《红胡子》在我的创作史上有重要参考意义。我所有在这之前拍摄的电影都和后来的电影不同。这标志着一个阶段的结束，也是另一个阶段的开始。

García Márquez: That is obvious. Furthermore, within the same film there are two scenes that are extreme in relation to the totality of your work, and they are both unforgettable; one is the praying mantis episode, and the other is the karate fight in the hospital courtyard.

Kurosawa: Yes, but what I wanted to tell you is that the author of the book, Shuguro Yamamoto, had always opposed having his novels made into films. He made an exception with Red Beard because I persisted with merciless obstinacy until I succeeded. Yet, when he had finished viewing the film he turned to look at me and said: “Well it’s more interesting than my novel.”

马尔克斯：嗯，这是很明显的。此外，在这部影片里有两个场景令人难忘，它们都与你作品的整体有关。一个是螳螂的片断；另一个是医院庭院里空手道的搏斗。

黑泽明：是的。但我想告诉你的是，这本书的作者山本周五郎一贯反对把他的小说改编成电影，《红胡子》却成为一个例外。因为我一直坚持直到我如愿以偿。然而，当山本周五郎看完这部影片之后，他转头对我说：“不错，它比我的小说更有意思。”

García Márquez: Why did he like it so much, I wonder?

Kurosawa: Because he had a clear awareness of the inherent characteristics of cinema. The only thing he requested of me was that I be very careful with the protagonist, a complete failure of a woman, as he saw her. But the curious thing is that the idea of a failed woman was not explicit in his novel.

马尔克斯：我想知道为什么他这么喜欢它？

黑泽明：因为他对电影的内在特性有着清晰的认识。他只要求我一件事，就是要小心处理主人公的形象——一个彻底失败的女人。但有趣的是这个失败女人在他的小说里却刻画的不够清楚。

García Márquez: Perhaps he thought it was. It is something that often happens to us novelists.

Kurosawa: So it is. In fact, upon seeing the films based on their books, some writers say: “That part of my novel is well portrayed.” But they are actually referring to something that was added by the director. I understand what they are saying, because they may see clearly expressed on the screen, by sheer intuition on the part of the director, something they had meant to write but had not been able to.

马尔克斯：可能他也这么认为，这种情况常常发生在我们小说家身上。

黑泽明：是这样的。实际上，在观看根据作品改编的电影时，有些作者会说：“我小说的那一部分被描写得很好。”其实，他们是在暗指那些被导演添加进去的东西。我理解他们在说什么，因为他们会在银幕上清晰地看到，凭借着导演纯粹的直觉所展现出来的某些他们想表达、却力所不能及的东西。

García Márquez: It is a known fact: “Poets are mixers of poisons.” But, to come back to your current film, will the typhoon be the most difficult thing to film?

Kurosawa: No. The most difficult thing was to work with the animals. Water serpents, rose-eating ants. Domesticated snakes are too accustomed to people, they don’t flee instinctively, and they behave like eels. The solution was to capture a huge wild snake, which kept trying with all its might to escape and was truly frightening. So it played its role very well. As for the ants, it was a question of getting them to climb up a rosebush in single file until they reached a rose. They were reluctant for a long time, until we made a trail of honey on the stem, and the ants climbed up. Actually, we had many difficulties, but it was worth it, because I learned a great deal about them.

马尔克斯：这是一个已知的事实：“诗人可以点石成金”。但是，回到你目前的电影上，台风对拍摄来说会是最难的部分吗？

黑泽明：不，最困难的事情是和动物在一起工作，大水蛇、大蚂蚁。被驯化的蛇已经习惯人类了，它们不会本能地逃走，而且动起来就像鳗鱼。我们只能抓一只很大的野生蛇，但它总是想尽一切办法逃走，太吓人了。所以这家伙扮演的角色非常棒。至于蚂蚁，最大的问题是要让它们排成一行，爬上一枝玫瑰花。它们不愿这样做，为此花了很长时间，直到我们用蜂蜜在花茎上涂上一条小径，蚂蚁才爬上去。确实，我们有许多的困难，但那是值得的，因为我从中学到了许多的东西。

García Márquez: Yes, so I’ve noticed. But what kind of film is this that is as likely to have problems with ants as with typhoons? What is the plot?

Kurosawa: It is very difficult to summarize in a few words.

马尔克斯：是的，我有注意到。那么这部既出现了蚂蚁又牵涉到台风的影片到底是什么样的电影呢？故事情节是什么？

黑泽明：这很难用几句话就概括出来。

García Márquez: Does somebody kill somebody?

Kurosawa: No. It’s simply about an old woman from Nagasaki who survived the atomic bomb and whose grandchildren went to visit her last summer. I have not filmed shockingly realistic scenes which would prove to be unbearable and yet would not explain in and of themselves the horror of the drama. What I would like to convey is the type of wounds the atomic bomb left in the heart of our people, and how they gradually began to heal. I remember the day of the bombing clearly, and even now I still can’t believe that it could have happened in the real world. But the worst part is that the Japanese have already cast it into oblivion.

马尔克斯：有谋杀情节吗？

黑泽明：没有。很简单，它是关于一位在长崎原子弹爆炸中幸存的老妇人与夏日来探访她的孙辈们的故事。我没有拍摄令人震撼的真实场景，这样的场景即使拍得让人难以承受，也仍然无法将灾难的恐怖和戏剧效果表现出来。我想要表达的是原子弹留在我们的人民心理上的创伤，以及他们怎样开始逐渐地疗伤。我还清楚地记得爆炸的那一天，直到现在我仍然不能相信它会已经发生在真实的世界里。但比这更糟糕的是日本人已经将这一切淡忘了。

电影《八月狂想曲》剧照

García Márquez: What does that historical amnesia mean for the future of Japan, for the identity of the Japanese people?

Kurosawa: The Japanese don’t talk about it explicitly. Our politicians in particular are silent for fear of the United States. They may have accepted Truman’s explanation that he resorted to the atomic bomb only to hasten the end of the World War. Still, for us, the war goes on. The full death toll for Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been officially published at 230,000. But in actual fact there were over half a million dead. And even now there are still 2,700 patients at the Atomic Bomb Hospital waiting to die from the after-effects of the radiation after 45 years of agony. In other words, the atomic bomb is still killing Japanese.

马尔克斯：历史的遗忘对于日本的未来和日本人的自我认同意味着什么？

黑泽明：日本人不愿明确地谈论这些问题。尤其是我们的政治家们因为害怕美国而保持沉默。或许他们接受了美国总统杜鲁门的解释，他采用投放原子弹的手段，只是为了加速“二战”的结束。然而对于我们来说，战争还在继续。官方公布的广岛和长崎正式的死亡数字为23万，而实际死亡人数超过50万。即便就现在，也还有2700个受到辐射的病人住在原子弹医院，经过45 年的痛苦煎熬仍然在等待着死亡，原子弹还在杀害日本人。

García Márquez: The most rational explanation seems to be that the U.S. rushed in to end it with the bomb for fear that the Soviets would take Japan before they did.

Kurosawa: Yes, but why did they do it in a city inhabited only by civilians who had nothing to do with the war? There were military concentrations that were in fact waging war.

马尔克斯：最合理的解释似乎是，美国害怕苏联会抢先占领日本，就匆忙地投下原子弹结束“二战”。

黑泽明：是的。但是为什么他们要投放在一个居民地呢？而这些居民在这场战争中什么也没有做。还是有很多发动战争的军事基地啊。

García Márquez: Nor did they drop it on the Imperial Palace, which must have been a very vulnerable spot in the heart of Tokyo. And I think that this is all explained by the fact that they wanted to leave the political power and the military power intact in order to carry out a speedy negotiation without having to share the booty with their allies. It’s something no other country has ever experienced in all of human history. Now then: Had Japan surrendered without the atomic bomb, would it be the same Japan it is today?

Kurosawa: It’s hard to say. The people who survived Nagasaki don’t want to remember their experience because the majority of them, in order to survive, had to abandon their parents, their children, their brothers and sisters. They still can’t stop feeling guilty. Afterwards, the U.S. forces that occupied the country for six years influenced by various means the acceleration of forgetfulness, and the Japanese government collaborated with them. I would even be willing to understand all this as part of the inevitable tragedy generated by war. But I think that, at the very least, the country that dropped the bomb should apologize to the Japanese people. Until that happens this drama will not be over.

马尔克斯：他们也没有选择扔向皇宫，皇宫才是东京最脆弱的中心。我想这就解释了为什么他们让政治中心和军事力量原封不动的保留下来，因为他们想要进行一场最高效的谈判，但不想和同盟国一起共享这份战利品。在人类历史上没有其他国家经历过这些。那么，如果没有原子弹爆炸日本还会投降吗?日本现在还会一样吗?

黑泽明：很难说。那些长崎的幸存者不想想起那段经历，因为他们中的绝大多数为了生存不得不遗弃自己的父母、孩子和兄弟姐妹。他们依旧为此感到罪恶。后来，美国占领这个国家长达六年，用各种各样的方法强迫他们忘掉原子弹的记忆，而日本政府也愿意配合。我甚至会把这一切理解为战争带来的不可避免的悲剧。但是我认为，至少这个扔下原子弹的国家应该向日本人民道歉，在此之前这些闹剧不会结束。

García Márquez: That far? Couldn’t the misfortune be compensated for by a long era of happiness?

Kurosawa: The atomic bomb constituted the starting point of the Cold War and of the arms race, and it marked the beginning of the process of creation and utilization of nuclear energy. Happiness will never be possible given such origins.

马尔克斯：要这么久吗？不幸难道不可以被长时间的幸福所补偿吗？

黑泽明：原子弹爆炸是冷战和军备竞赛的起点，也标志着核能创新和利用的起点。幸福的水绝不可能从这样的源泉中流淌。

García Márquez: I see. Nuclear energy was born as a cursed force, and a force born under a curse is a perfect theme for Kurosawa. But what concerns me is that you are not condemning nuclear energy itself, but the way it was misused from the beginning. Electricity is still a good thing in spite of the electric chair.

Kurosawa: It is not the same thing. I think nuclear energy is beyond the possibilities of control that can be established by human beings. In the event of a mistake in the management of nuclear energy, the immediate disaster would be immense and the radioactivity would remain for hundreds of generations. On the other hand, when water is boiling, it suffices to let it cool for it to no longer be dangerous. Let’s stop using elements which continue to boil for hundreds of thousands of years.

马尔克斯：我明白。核能自打诞生就是残暴的化身，也是你完美的选题。但是你不能谴责核能本身，而是它一开始就被别有用心的利用。死刑电椅的存在并不妨碍电本身的意义。

黑泽明：这不一样。我认为核能已经超出了被人类掌控的可能。如果在核能管理中出现任何失误，灾难即刻就会到来，辐射将会影响数百代。另一方面，当水开了，只有让它自然冷却直到不会对人造成伤害。让我们停止使用那些会让它持续沸腾千百年的东西吧。

García Márquez: I owe a large measure of my own faith in humanity to Kurosawa’s films. But I also understand your position in view of the terrible injustice of using the atomic bomb only against civilians and of the Americans and Japanese colluding to make Japan forget. But it seems to me equally unjust for nuclear energy to be deemed forever accursed without considering that it could perform a great non-military service for humanity. There is in that a confusion of feelings which is due to the irritation you feel because you know Japan has forgotten, and because the guilty, which is to say, the United States, has not in the end come to acknowledge its guilt and to render unto the Japanese people the apologies due to them.

Kurosawa: Human beings will be more human when they realize there are aspects of reality they may not manipulate. I don’t think we have the right to generate children without anuses, or eight-legged horses, such as is happening at Chernobyl. But now I think this conversation has become too serious, and that wasn’t my intention.

马尔克斯：我常常会以自己的人道主义理念衡量你的电影。我能够理解你在审视原子弹造成的可怕伤害，以及美国和日本串通起来让民众遗忘等事情中的立场。但对我来说，认为核能是永远被诅咒的也同样不公平，因为这并没有考虑到核能在非军事领域为人类提供的服务。你有一种由于愤怒而产生的情感困惑，因为你知道日本已经忘掉过去了，而有罪的一方，怎么说呢，也就是美国，始终没有承认他们的罪恶，并且向日本人民道歉。

黑泽明：人类将会更有人性，当他们认识到现实中有太多方面人们无法掌控。我觉得我们没有权利让孩子生下来就残缺不全，或者出现八条腿的马，就像在切尔诺贝利发生的那样。但是现在我认为这场对话太严肃了，这不是我的想法。

García Márquez: We’ve done the right thing. When a topic is as serious as this, one can’t help but discuss it seriously. Does the film you are in the process of finishing cast any light on your thoughts in this matter?

Kurosawa: Not directly. I was a young journalist when the bomb was dropped, and I wanted to write articles about what had happened, but it was absolutely forbidden until the end of the occupation. Now, to make this film, I began to research and study the subject and I know much more than I did then. But if I had expressed my thoughts directly in the film, it could not have been shown in today’s Japan, or anywhere else.

马尔克斯：我们做的是正确的，当一个话题如此严肃时，我们只能严肃的探讨它。这部影片的拍摄过程让你完成了关于这个问题的思考吗？

黑泽明：也不全是。当原子弹投下时我还是个年轻的记者，我想用文字记录下来所发生的一切，但在被占领前这是完全被禁止的。现在为了拍这部电影，我不得不研究和学习这个主题，然后我知道的远远超过我做到的。但是如果我再影片中直接的表达自己的想法，这将不会在今天的日本或者任何地方上映。

García Márquez: Do you think it might be possible to publish the transcript of this dialogue?

Kurosawa: I have no objection. On the contrary. This is a matter on which many people in the world should give their opinion without restrictions of any sort.

马尔克斯：你允许我将这段对话的文字记录发表吗？

黑泽明：我不反对。相反，对于这件事，世界上的很多人都应该没有限制地说出他们自己的观点。

García Márquez: Thank you very much. All things considered, I think that if I were Japanese I would be as unyielding as you on this subject. And at any rate, I understand you. No war is good for anybody.

Kurosawa: That is so. The trouble is that when the shooting starts, even Christ and the angels turn into military chiefs of staff.

马尔克斯：非常感谢你。考虑到这些，我想如果我是一个日本人，在这件事情上我会像你一样绝不屈服。无论如何，我理解你，没有战争对所有人来说都是再好不过的。

黑泽明：就是这样。糟糕的是，当战争的枪声响起时，即使是耶稣和天使也会变成军事参谋长。

参考资料

[1]原帖：http://kino-obscura.com/post/91776836653/garcia-marquez-kurosawa

[2]参考翻译http://cinephilia.net/archives/31111